Giving Starsiege a facelift?

[Weatherlight]

Of note: some models are, to say, broken. The Apocalypse for one. I noticed it when I started my Apocalypse Rebel Skin conversion. The shoulders if you will on the Apocalypse's legs are imperfectly matched. I forget if we found a way to fix this but I remember having problems trying to get Starsiege to accept replacement (I.E. fixed) models for vehicles. Of course I have done many various drugs since then so god only knows if I know what I'm talking about anymore.

The other problem with model/skin relations is that the coders cheated and you find many areas that have skin replication. I.E. the skin for the foot of a Gorgon might be generated from the same area of the texture map as the ass. This will become a problem as detail work sometimes shows up in other places on the model that it was never meant to.

[Trev-MUN]

Of note: some models are, to say, broken. The Apocalypse for one. I noticed it when I started my Apocalypse Rebel Skin conversion. The shoulders if you will on the Apocalypse's legs are imperfectly matched. I forget if we found a way to fix this but I remember having problems trying to get Starsiege to accept replacement (I.E. fixed) models for vehicles. Of course I have done many various drugs since then so god only knows if I know what I'm talking about anymore.

Maybe that guide Cloudburst linked to a few posts back will have an answer? I've not taken a closer look at it yet, but I plan to once I've figured out what kind of boundaries we've got for upgrading textures.

The other problem with model/skin relations is that the coders cheated and you find many areas that have skin replication. I.E. the skin for the foot of a Gorgon might be generated from the same area of the texture map as the ass. This will become a problem as detail work sometimes shows up in other places on the model that it was never meant to.

Yeah; I saw that with the Apocalypse, too.

I have a possible theory I'm going to tinker with, but ... the problem is, if it does work, it'll render ten years of player skins useless.

While inspecting the contents of both Starsiege and the ES3 ATR volume files, I noticed that originally many vehcles had multiple skin files. The vehicle that we know as the Paladin (it was just called "Tank" in the ES3 bitmaps) originally had a 256 x 256 skin for its entire body and then a second image for skinning its turret. Some hercs had two skinning images, one for the body, one for the legs.

In Starsiege, they consolidated the skin images into one file and shrunk them accordingly to fit within the 256 x 256 constraints, resulting in multiple 128 x 128 bitmaps arranged together. My guess is that they did this to both simplify skinning for players where usable vehicles are concerned, and also to shave a few kilobytes off for space considerations.

The multi-image skin trick lives on today in the Cybrid Hercs, whom still rely on a second image for the skinning of their fins.

Theoretically we should be able to bring Starsiege's vehicles back to ES3-style skinning.

It should be possible to remap the models--upgraded or not--so that every shape in their geometry relies on a different 256 x 256 skin. That will make it a slight pain in the ass for skinning purposes, but at the same time we'll be getting more detail for the buck, effectively getting close to the quality of, say, the textures used for SS: 2845's Hercs.

That of course depends on how much play we truly have with texturing in Darkstar.

[Weatherlight]

Sounds interesting in theory, but can we make it work?

Go find out. I can't program to save my life anymore. Fried my upper level thought processes on drugs.

[Angel-A]

Now, with things like lensflare, fire, projectiles, etc., the bmps used for them are relatively small, if they could be redone and enlarged (128x256 and 256x256 sizes), that would definately fix the problem of them looking so pixelated (actually, this would have to be the easiest thing to do, since you basically have to just put a new image in the SS folder and that's it).

With weapons, they usually have the textures for each weapon group together in one bmp, (e.g., the alien weapons like blasters and mfacs all use textures from the same bmp) if the weapons could be made to map to induvidual bmps of each weapon with higher resolution, they would look much higher quality. So, if you can figure out how to do the skins with higher resolution, the same can be done with the weapons. Also, if you can't figure out how to get the vehicles using two bmps, there's always get the vehicles that use the smaller skin size of 128x256 to use 256x256.

[Weatherlight]

256x256 is good, but modern games are using 1024 or 2048(!) texture maps. Yes, an improvement but not anywhere close to modern gaming. The color limit will also hinder the upgrades and will make the game's age apparent (especially as people move to HD and whatnot).

Not to mention the lack of bumpmapping, OpenGL 2.0 support et al etc ad infinitum ad naseum.

[Cloudburst]

SS uses O-GL. If we, could perhaps find an update to Open GL that is meant for currently released games and put them into the SS directory, and reap thy rewards?


And, when you open up the SS game, above the main menu criteria, click the gold SS symbol. Now, see, what dimensions are those pics? HMM? HMMM??!

[Weatherlight]

SS uses O-GL. If we, could perhaps find an update to Open GL that is meant for currently released games and put them into the SS directory, and reap thy rewards?

Probably not. Starsiege wouldn't know how to handle the expanded/new OGL instructors. Most likely you'd get missing or incorrect function/executions.

Not to mention that just grabbing files meant for updated software and making it copypasta into the appropriate directory in Starsiege would bring up a whole slew of "invalid or corrupt" file errors. Or perhaps "incorrect file size".

[Cloudburst]

The clear handle is update, however.

[Weatherlight]

So I got a hold of Powio. This is an edited conversation so it flows more like an interview and is easier to read. Also edited for content. There was alot of off-topic chatter and me making fun of him.

Powio: In theory, you can get hi-res textures in the game, with some limitations. Static objects have their own texture mapping, so I think they should resize any hi-res textures you place on them accurately as long as they're not too big.
Buildings not so much, because they don't have any defined texture mapping, so if you start changing their textures with smaller or much larger ones, you're going to end up with bloating and distortion, probably.

James: So what? Can you find the original texture maps and just alter them? Or will the game pitch a fit?

Powio: The game should fit it if you just replace the texture. I used to create static shapes, so I knew how texture mapping worked.

James: Okay. One of the things mentioned was remodeling and replacing the older Starsiege vehicles. Thoughts and hints on that?

Powio: It's definitely possible. Not exactly easy, but I do have the proper way to do it. See Abobo herc on YouTube

James: The real question is can you merely add in a new vehicle or is it possible to replace the old ones as well? I know about the delivery van/pouncer [model hacks].

Powio: It's possible to replace the old ones. I even have a few of the original models for them, not but all of them. Once I organize it. Some of this stuff is still on my computer at home, I think.

James: Skyboxes were also mentioned. What about those?

Powio: They're more like sky cylinders. Those can be changed as well with a lot of effort.

I'll post more info/script/files as they come along. Powio's busy for the most part so it might take him some time. However this does give you idiots a starting idea.

[Cloudburst]

Yes, idiots we are! Thanks for the update...

[Trev-MUN]

Well, I busted up my install of XP64 and possibly my computer, and it looks like Anzac's BMP converter is the culprit.

http://the-junkyard.net/forums/showt...4865#post94865

You can read the details there. I'll be out of action for now, though.

Word to the wise: Stay away from that program.

[Angel-A]

Just discovered somthing interesting... If you were to take a skin that's 256X128 (a dreadlock skin for example), and stretch it to 256X256, it makes a higher resolution skins and SS changes the mapping dimensions acordingly, the only thing is the skins need to be scripted on, or attached to the herc and then enlarged. And the rest of the skins will still be compatible

[Weatherlight]

Not like I actually give a damn whether or not you idiots fail, and I'm certainly not providing you with links that you might (on the off chance) find useful.

[DarkFlare]

I have made hi-res images for vehicles before using photoshop, and setting the 256x256,
i could use it as long as i didnt see a camera view of my herc, otherwise i would crash.
I dont know if other people would, I quick using it after I found out it was my skin.

The vehicle ba I could see it fine there, but teh Ctrl+V keymap didnt let me stay in SS
very long.

Dont know if this was covered yet.

[Angel-A]

Plaguedog posted this over at SSP, looks useful for the sky editing.

Patch Starsiege.exe to use more planet BMPs

Program(s) needed: Hex Workshop

BACKUP YOUR STARSIEGE.EXE
When modifying Starsiege.exe always overwrite data. NEVER ADD DATA.

1. Now, install Hex Workshop and open Starsiege.exe.

2. Search for IDBMP_SKY_*

3. Change IDBMP_SKY_* to IDBMP_*
IDBMP_SKY_* = 4944 424D 505F 534B 595F 2A
IDBMP_* = 4944 424D 505F 2A00 0000 00

First, use the text panel to change IDBMP_SKY_* to IDBMP_*.
Next, go to the hexadecimal panel and add eight zeros after 2A.

BEFORE


AFTER


4. Save. Run Starsiege. Load a map. Check the SimPlanet's Bmp Tag property for the expanded selection of bmps.