Starsiege 2845 - Now Defunct

[<Prometheus>]

On a sidenote, if y'all would look at the ClanCore forums again it seems that there's been a skin change. I guess that makes sense, seeing as how 2845 is no more. Posting functionality is still disabled, and personally it looks too white for me, but this could be a sign that the team's already begun work on their new project.

[BDUAres]

I would be willing to bet that the majority, if not all, of the Clancore people (especially Trajan as he pointed everyone in this direction) have been reading the things posted here on at least a daily basis. So I think it slightly interesting that none of them have had anything to say beyond the original shut down note - except for Vyper at his NTDF site - especially with such serious accusations flying about that they just added a little to the already existing Torque demos and called it the ATR.

Vyper making some sort of comment I can understand, since he has run his squad's site for years and really didn't have much of a choice in whether or not he would still be involved in his own squads forums. I also think Vyper really cares about Starsiege. After all he ran the master server for us all to play on for a long time, and kept the game going for all of us by the seat of his pants.

To me it doesn't really matter what Clancore coded or didn't code. They did make some sort of attempt to get the old Starsiege people playing something different, and their basic idea was genuine, whatever method they used seeing it to fruition. At least they did something, and did put out something, which very few others even attempted to do. So for that effort, however great or small it was, I applaud them.

What I see as the biggest problem in the situation is a lack of class.

Yes they knew their project was going under, and many of us could see that as well. So be it. There are ways to bow out gracefully, with class.

Locking the site down without notice, and turning your back on everyone who supported things even a little bit - even by just downloading the thing and taking a look at it to see what it was like, getting even the smallest idea of the concept if nothing else, is not bowing out with either class or professionalism.

It seems more along the lines of a kid embarrassed his basketball was a little flat, so he grabbed it and ran home with it, leaving the teams who were playing with it anyway staring after him.

The way I look at things, when I am going to spend my money somewhere, I will more likely buy something at a place where I am treated respectfully, politely, and with class, than somewhere that merely has a cheap price. In the consumer world today there are always a few dozen other competitors out there where you can get pretty much the same product. What sets apart the one I buy from is how I am treated. Treat me right and I happily part with a little more money than I would spend somewhere else, and I will be one of those 'loyal customers'. Treat me wrong and the cheapest sale you can give me won't see me entering your shop doors.

We did not spend any money on Clancore's ATR, though knowing VU's history, and knowing they do not do charity, I am sure that somewhere down the road if the project had been successful there would have been a product for us to buy, whether bundled with another game or not. Luckily we got to see how we would have been treated as customers before we actually were paying customers.

After this, Clancore could invent the greatest game that has ever been created, and I would not even so much as look at it. I would rather look for a company that treats me with respect, professionalism and class.

Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me.

[Maestro]

I have to concur with what some of you have mentioned earlier regarding the project's management issues. There were things they could have done differently that at the very least could have saved them time, engendered more cooperation with the community, and/or placed them on a less parasitic reliance on third party engines/materials. I also think that a key problem was a shortage of capable coders... which really is kind of astounding considering that I personally know at least a few capable coders who volunteered and whose services were turned down.

There was also some friction within the team itself at various points, which is inevitable but does nothing to advance the overall goal. And there were serious errors when Trajan made certain PR moves and then failed to deliver on them. I honestly believe that the clincher in this situation was indeed a lack of promised third party support. That ended things. But it was only the icing on the cake for a project which had been suffering from under-staffing, poor management and a host of other aggravations, including an incredibly overbearing and non-courteous relationship with their "sponsor" VUG. It seems to me that VUG did everything in its power to make life difficult for a team that was essentially trying to give them a free boost.

On the other hand let me say that making a game is a massive undertaking, in no way easy. I don't think we should necessarily crucify these guys because they couldn't pull it off. If you really want to hold a grudge there are other valid reasons I'm sure, but failure itself I don't think is really one of them. This was a big thing. Yes, they bit off more than they could chew and then were playing catch-up much of the time. But I, like Ares, feel that their basic idea was genuine and I also think there were a lot of hurdles they did overcome before the ultimate closure. Those things to me are not insignificant just because they could not do it. Many on the Clancore team made a noble, devoted effort. Their coders seem to have really dropped the ball, and maybe management also has some bearing on that. But my heart goes out to the artists and the music folks who devoted their extra time and made some incredible concept art, decals, models, etc. which are now completely useless. All the more so because VUG now insists that those things be put into a vault for some nebulous future use which will never occur.

Bringing me to my last point. There is one thing which I am absolutely fucking PISSED about. All of Starsiege 2845's assets, including story documents, level design, decals, logos, skins, etc. etc. are now being put under lock and key in a very dark place, never to see the light of day. Understanding well the legal reasons for why that's being done, I must say I find it a complete and utter travesty. Vivendi Universal has in many ways disregarded us as a fan base for years. If on the very slim chance they do make a Starsiege game in the near future, it's likely to suck ala Vengeance because Vivendi corporate doesn't have the slightest inkling about who we are, what we want and like, and why we're Starsiege fans. They think that, as with Star Wars perhaps or Lord of the Rings, they can slap a Starsiege/Tribes logo on something and call it a profit. And as a result, it reflects strongly on whatever projects they produce - when they produce them, which is likely to be 'never again' considering the scale of the Vengeance disaster.

If I were in Trajan's position, I would have someone turn those design documents over to the community. I would hand them over to some custodians on the Junkyard or elsewhere and just say "Whoops we had a security breach, nothing we could do about that now." But at least the fans would be able to see then everything which they'd tagged their hopes on all these years. At least those of us who want to keep laboring to keep the franchise alive, despite all of VUG's fuckups, would have something to show for our fervent devotion. But that's not going to happen now. And I have to admit, it angers me because it reduces our chances of ever doing anything to revive the Starsiege universe. Another year passes and another light fades. I know for a fact there are projects in the works which could make good use of those materials to raise the spirits and perhaps the star of this community, but they will never be released because of some bullshit non-disclosure agreements which have only shackled the team's development throughout the entire process. Fucked again.

I would have loved to see 2845 finished but I think I had realized as early as six months ago that it was likely not going to happen. I had still hoped they'd cleaned up enough to get multiplayer finished, and maybe pass on Single Player stuff to another dev team. Unrealistic hopes from a fanboy, apparently. But I would at least like some kind of redemption, something more than a "Seeya later" from Clancore. I honestly do wish them luck but they've turned away this franchise and apparently, the fans of it as well. I'm sure that they would not frame it this way (and I do wish them luck), but in effect that is what has happened. So now we are on our own again, and forced to pick up the scraps and salvage the time we wasted in idle hope. So be it. I swear to God that if I have any minute amount of control over the future of Starsiege I will not sit idly by again and watch as it goes down the tubes. I will do everything in my power to keep this community, and this IP alive and kicking.

[Feret]

Ares:


right on the money, though I disagree with how much "progress" they really made (the absence of targeting computers being an indicator), the post is sound, none of that matters now.

Maestro:

I understand your frustration but you are sorely wrong here. When you go to work for a firm that develops things, you sign a confidentiality and non-disclosure agreement, essentially anything you create while working or contracting for said company becomes their property and any derivative works thereof. This is common practice in EVERY corporation not just VUG, IBM, Microsoft, HP, heck I betcha even agricultural companies have something like that. It is boilerplate and standard practice. I understand your frustrations, but the right way to go about it is to file a request with Vivendi to release any assets and artwork they feel would be good to release. Not saying its going to happen mind you, but you can't fault vivendi for not covering their own Asses. If such a leak did happen Clancore could have gotten sued and that would be the end of it.

Let it be known that I have NO I'll will towards the Clancore team whatsoever. My remarks are based on my personal experience in other development teams and personal observation from outside I have zero knowledge about what really is going on at Clancore except what has been posted publicly, however, the little I have seen has painted the picture that has drawn me to these conclusions. I wanted 2845 as much as anyone, and I hesitated to even sound a whistle a year ago when I thought something was up, but I'll be honest, I do think Clancore was a bit over their heads, it was a daunting task and it seemed to me that they had very little "planning" that I could tell from outside.

I can only hope that they learn from these lessons, look at the process, find what they were lacking, fix it, and then never look back again as they move on to productivity. I hope that is what happens, because I've been good friends and acquaintances with many of their staff for more years then I dare number at this point. I hope all goes well, and I have to trust that this is the right course of action, even if I feel it could have been avoided. That is how I feel. Am I bummed? Yeah I'm bummed, but that's what life does to you sometimes.

[Maestro]

The artists, writers, musicians etc. who generated those assets wanted to help the Starsiege franchise. They had no expectation of being paid. They wanted to do something for Starsiege because they loved the concept or the storyline or the community or because they wanted an opportunity to do something cool. I am confident that if I asked the artists' permission for use of their stuff in not-for-profit projects they would give me the thumbs up. Their intent was not to line VUG's pockets, much less to have their ideas congeal in a corporate vault for eternity. I want to use that stuff, that art and/or music, to do things to hand back to the community. And as I said, I know for a fact such projects are in the works as I type this. It would be an amazing gift.

But I do doubt we are ever going to get our hands on that stuff, and that's unfortunate. Like I said I understand the legal reasoning behind it, but I find it totally lacking in this situation, especially from a fan's perspective.

[Feret]

I understand how you feel Maestro, and I feel for them as well. It is not their fault the project did not carry to fruition, and it is not their fault their work will never see the light of day. It is what it is, I'm not sure anyone can do anything about it.

[booster]

I would have to support Mae on this. There was a ton of stuff created by the staff that could of and should have made it out. While the source code, etc. is proprietary that which is created by the writers falls in to a grey area since it is not copywriten. We should be privy to it. Someone like Mae and tJY would be able to archive it for all of us to enjoy. Fuck CCDG and VUG.

[BDUAres]

since the other day when I posted the links to most of the SS:2845 forums - they were merely hidden, not actually locked up - I think at least one person here has saved the Fanfic section of the site, if not more.


are some of the things you were talking about in the forums themselves Maestro? Or were they in other sections of the Clancore web site? I haven't yet looked for ways around to the addresses to the other sections

I am looking in their forums right now and everything is still there, from pictures, to poetry

Manual addresses for each of the forums sections are listed here:

http://forums.the-junkyard.net/showthread.php?t=8475

[Maestro]

I saw that, and appreciate it. I save my own work twice all the time, so I had copies of all of my own fiction. Some of the fanfiction on the ClanCore boards would indeed qualify as some of the stuff I'm talking about - we could use that. If anyone has salvaged some of that stuff and could please email James, we'd appreciate it. Pictures too, anything and everything Starsiege you can find. Even your own squad icons and backstories, please. Everything both official and unofficial.

The fanfic stuff however is most definitely legal to go and hunt down. The official stuff (minus things made publicly available), is a shadier area. What I would really like access to is the internal planning and story documents, internal concept art assets, etc. The stuff that the team used to plan their game around. That would also include any unreleased music, art, models, story stuff, character biographies, again anything and everything. I'm pretty sure they kept it on a parallel file server that is accessible only to CCDG admins. For the record, I don't endorse theft. And I do not want to get CCDG in legal trouble. But I really would like that stuff, for use in non-official, not-for-profit projects.

I think that those documents would be the greatest gift Clancore could give the Starsiege community right now, as it represented a story penned from the hand of Blake Hutchins and thus is about as canon as stuff gets nowadays. Obviously this would violate their NDA, but IMHO that may be the more moral choice considered that some of this outstanding material is going to be left sitting unused in a vault somewhere for years, if not forever. I don't think anyone wants that except some stodgy lawyers at VU. I don't even think they realize that releasing that stuff would invigorate the Starsiege community. Above all, I don't think they really care. But I do care, and I'm sure there are others among us who do as well. God damn I wish we had those documents.

For my part, allow me to share something which is now also defunct but which has tons of great information on it. This was the Starsiege Omnipedia project which, like 2845, kind of fell off when Configsys.boy! went on extended hiatus. Until now I'd hesitated to give out the URL, hoping that the wiki would get some kind of jump start as some point, but since that seems unlikely I'm going to release it now and tell you all to grab what you can while SSU//TRP is still live. It has been untended in some time and by the look of the long grass that's started to crop up, it may soon be condemned.

Omnipedia: http://www.starsiegeuniverse.com/blu...ex.php/Welcome

Also, it seems likely that the Mechnexus will go away or at least shift gears, and before that happens I will point you all to the Fanfic page for anyone who wants to compile that stuff. I would request that someone else please do, as I already have a lot of double-copies of things and am busy with other schoolwork this weekend and next week.

Fanfiction Gallery: http://fanfic.mechnex.net/

[Smylodon]

Maestro, the team and any contributors, signed an NDA.. That means that the art and any other assets are VUG's property, and while they may or may not immediatly possess the files themselves, the contract makes it Clancore's (and thereby Trajan and Tsa's) responsibility that it doesn't get out.

Any leak might mean VUG sees it as a conrtact violation only to send the hounds (lawyers) after them.

Be displeased about it all you want - I don't like it either - but the legal ramifications of releasing it into public without VUG's approval can be bad. Not to the project - that's gone - but to CCDG as a whole. After all, if YOU are responsible for the art, and the art disappears.. with you going "euh.. I dunno? HAX?" who do you think VUG will string up? Certainly not the mysterious hacker pixies..

As for Barak, your assumptions are pretentious as always.
True, they didn't have the coders to do it... But this wasn't as much by choise as you make it sound. In T:V, it was mostly scripting and animation. When it then got turned over to the Torque engine, there were just too few people who could do much with it. While you can be a C++ coder, that doesn't mean you immediatly know how to code in Torque as well.
That being said, it shouldn't exactly take one several years to learn to at least understand it.
In all honesty though, there were many issues in 2845 that the Torque community never showed as being able to fix, and claiming it is then not difficult, is blatant ignorance. If nobody produced a solution yet, why expect them to come up with it if they're low on coders in the first place?

And that also brings us to the pretty useless accusations of lies and deceit.
In all honesty, I can mostly see a personal disposition towards Trajan there.
I've not spoken to the man enough to make up my mind about him personally, but when it comes to choosing between someone who tries to run a project that already cost so much (literally) and keep things from falling apart, or a foul-mouthed pretentious nay-sayer, I think I'll choose for trying to stay optimistic. If anything, I tried to keep up hopes about 2845 as it was, as more downhearted 'oh it sucks, it's not gonna work' is just going to have a negative influence. There's not sense in doing that.

In your opinion, they should have let it die where it stood after the T:V debacle, and perhaps in hindsight, that would've been better, but hindsight is 20-20, and all you seem to see is 'failing project', while for some of the team it's actually been 4+ years of spending a shedload of free time on it. That's not something to give up easily... Not everything is as rational as you'd like it to b, and in the end, it is and was their choise to make.

Once again, some of you keep up the rather absurd notion that CCDG OWES people something. Some sort of justification for... something.
The behavior is sad.
What do you want? A medal? You got a 'thanks for the support' from that last post, but there's really nothing more you can expect.
The only people I think who deserve a bit more than that are the art guys and former devs that put a lot of effort into creating something.

As for when I started doubting it.. mmostly when the I got an inside view of the development of the ATR during testing. At first you get into something extremely limited and you accept it as such... but you can sometimes feel by the pace of how things get fixed how well things are going.. and it did seem to me that this really was a make or break situation.
What I just thought was a pity was the drop-off of testers. Most people had seen the list of people, but in reality, I'd say half of the first batch really ended up in the game, and by 2 weeks, half of that dropped off and had been replaced by a new group. The ATR shows all too well that it wasn't tested with large groups much, and there's your reason: there just weren't the people online at the same time to do it. I do sometimes feel bad about not being able to be there at the right times as well, but timezones are a pain in the ass one will have to live with.
Once the testers dropped off, I figured the ATR would be troublesome. If you can't test something under full load, it'll depend on pure luck if the thing stands up to the community's scrutiny... and as expected, it didn't, really... And it didn't really bring in any new (coder) people either, which WAS something they had kinda hoped for.

I don't generally like speaking for them like that - makes me feel more like I'm defending them, while they can do that themselves much better.
I DO agree with some of their choises and point, however, and will speak up about it when I feel it nessesary. Rest assured this is my own opinion on this.

[Maestro]

Smy, they pinned the hopes of a huge portion of the community to this thing. There was always a sense that we were all "in it together." Do I think they owe the community something for all of the time, patience, devotion etc. that it showed towards the 2845 project? Yeah, I guess I do. I was under the impression that they respected their fanbase.

Like I said, I don't want to get those guys in trouble, but what good is ANY of their work going to do sitting under VUG's desks somewhere in the hinterlands? Because that stuff is going to be completely disregarded. It's the case of one man's junk being another man's treasure. We want that work. Probably, I see the artists having no objection to the community having it. The law on this point is deficient, and there needs to be some action taken to equalize the situation and give the community a goddamn break for a change.

It's not a matter of Clancore OWING anything. It's just something that I think would be incredibly helpful. And as I acknowledged, no, I don't think it's going to happen. But this community needs a goddamn miracle and if we can't hope for something like that, what's the point? I'm working to try and put stuff on the table, give the community some new toys to play with and maybe lift us up again after this debacle. Believe me, my conscience is clean in this regard.

[IVIaedhros]

If you guys are still interested in anything pertaining to Mechnexus and its databases, grab it now. Might as well post this email conversation with Trajan.

Dang...I just heard the news...looks like I'm the only one surprised. It's rather ironic. I hope that you and the staff will continue to maintain the CC developer's wiki. That thing has true potential to expand and help some folks out. As for Mechnexus and the fanfiction database...what are your plans for those? The database has some potential if you open it up to fans of all mecha. I was in process of digging up old links for Mechnexus when 2845 died, honestly, Mechnexus seems to be an extinct dinosaur now.

Well...to answer your last question first, the Mechnexus domain is most
likely going to be used as the homepage for the upcoming MOD.

The CC developers wiki will probably be taken down. Seeing as how we are
now doing a MOD for UT there are several wiki's already established for
Unreal that are way way beyond anything we could put up. Example:
http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki/
Any information people would need to know could be found there. The only
reason we put up a wiki for the Toqrue project is because TGE/TGEA has
shit for accessible documentation.

Fanfiction database...don't really have any plans for that at the
moment. We're doing a review of all our associated website options this
week and what we plan on doing with them, I'll get back to you about it
when we decide something. Might have to take it down if it's on a host
that we want to drop.

[barak1001]

Here's a little clue for you Smylodon.

I figured out how to implement targeting computers in torque in about 15 minutes after doing a 5 minute google search on the subject.

Smart mouthed nay sayer?

Well since we are name calling how about you falling under the, "Trajan's Yes Man" category?

I brought up valid points, you basically are saying you'll believe someone that BS'd the SS community for years over me?

In my book that makes you either gullible or dim witted, which one do you think you are?

[BDUAres]

Maestro - sent you a couple of PM's

[Maestro]

Got them, thank you.